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	<title>Comments on: Say What You Mean</title>
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	<description>The Quick and the Ed is an education blog published by Education Sector, an independent think tank in Washington D.C. The Quick and the Ed offers in-depth analysis on the latest in education policy and research.</description>
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		<title>By: john thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.quickanded.com/2008/08/say-what-you-mean.html/comment-page-1#comment-94</link>
		<dc:creator>john thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Needless to say, I meant to say that 100% of our students who pass the test are in honors classes, not regular classes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Needless to say, I meant to say that 100% of our students who pass the test are in honors classes, not regular classes.</p>
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		<title>By: john thompson</title>
		<link>http://www.quickanded.com/2008/08/say-what-you-mean.html/comment-page-1#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>john thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quickanded.com/wordpress/?p=1207#comment-91</guid>
		<description>Fascinating study.  I’d take you up on this being a compromise form of accountability.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It would be mighty hard to get this data in a timely enough manner to apply sanctions, and I see that as good.  THE BEST ACCOUNTABILITY IS THE DISINFECTANT OF SUNLIGHT.  But if you can’t live without “sticks,” schools could be assessed fines to help pay for remediation.  Schools with leaders with the ability to assess data could use this as leverage to be allowed to teach for mastery as opposed to skin deep test prep.  But I fear that the weakest students would get pushed out.  Then we could fine schools for their share of maternity ward Medicaid costs, incarceration, and early death due to ignorance of health and nutrition ...   Seriously, under NCLB excellent tests like AP and excellent assessments like the National Board are useless because they are clearly inappropriate for a national test.  Commit to rifle shot accountability and a whole world of opportunity opens up.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The Oklahoma Regents used to give us the GPAs of our former students, and the average for our school was a D-.  But I’d be interested in the GPA of our zip code.  It was announced today that my school had an average ACT of 15.3 which tied us for last among Oklahoma’s urban schools (We’re a more violent version of Douglass High in Baltimore and we shared the honor with our district’s school that has the demographics, gangs, and proficiency of Locke High.  To reenforce your point, due to the irrationalities of NCLB data,  they just failed AYP for the 6th year in a row, while we made AYP.  Oklahoma had four tiny schools with lower ACT scores on an Indian reservation and deep in the mountains of “Little Dixie.” [think Deliverance on Meth.]) &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But hundreds of the poor Black kids in our zip code go to a magnet school with Oklahoma’s 2nd highest average ACT of 25+ that was ranked in the top fifty in one of those national surveys (just ahead of my in-law’s school in Montgomery County) and several of the kids in our neighborhood attend a State magnet with an ACT of 31, and which is typically ranked in the top five of the nation.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is even more complex than you describe, but two big factors may explain some of the anomalies.  The percentage of our sophomores passing the English test was over 40% before NCLB, but now it is consistently in the low 30s.  The problem is that nearly 100% of the “passes” are in regular classes.  I almost never get a regular class student who has passed any of the state tests.  So the main correlation for NCLB scores is the percentage of students who remain in honors programs.   Typically our honors kids are in a neighborhood school because a family crisis (usually medical) makes it logistically difficult to go to one of the dozen magnet schools that serve our zip code.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The Regents data also showed that our special ed students had a B average in college.  Why?  They were athletes and athletes get mentors.  I also saw this close up when my nephew led Oklahoma State to three national championships in wrestling, while graduating nearly 100%.  Needless to say, wrestlers are only half human so if the mentoring works on them, it would work with others.  You’ve written eloquently on the need for college to do more, so again we have a lot in common.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Getting back to your big point, I simply can’t comprehend your fixation on the one factor that divides us, and that will ALWAYS divide us, when we could agree on so much.  NCLB I was based on the hypothesis that a single type of standardized test-driven accountability could spearhead reform.  We may not agree precisely on the evidence, but surely you are extremely disappointed with the law’s results.  Now you have a hypothesis that the sausage-making process can draft an NCLB II that avoids the previous pitfalls.  My assumption is that you can fix some problems of NCLB I, while creating new unforeseen negative effects.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But here’s my question.  This time next year, if you fail to create a good enough accountability system - one that meets your conscience’s standards) will you then come over to our side?  Or will it be politically impossible and will you go ahead and support an accountability regime that is not ready for prime time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating study.  I’d take you up on this being a compromise form of accountability.  </p>
<p>It would be mighty hard to get this data in a timely enough manner to apply sanctions, and I see that as good.  THE BEST ACCOUNTABILITY IS THE DISINFECTANT OF SUNLIGHT.  But if you can’t live without “sticks,” schools could be assessed fines to help pay for remediation.  Schools with leaders with the ability to assess data could use this as leverage to be allowed to teach for mastery as opposed to skin deep test prep.  But I fear that the weakest students would get pushed out.  Then we could fine schools for their share of maternity ward Medicaid costs, incarceration, and early death due to ignorance of health and nutrition &#8230;   Seriously, under NCLB excellent tests like AP and excellent assessments like the National Board are useless because they are clearly inappropriate for a national test.  Commit to rifle shot accountability and a whole world of opportunity opens up.</p>
<p>The Oklahoma Regents used to give us the GPAs of our former students, and the average for our school was a D-.  But I’d be interested in the GPA of our zip code.  It was announced today that my school had an average ACT of 15.3 which tied us for last among Oklahoma’s urban schools (We’re a more violent version of Douglass High in Baltimore and we shared the honor with our district’s school that has the demographics, gangs, and proficiency of Locke High.  To reenforce your point, due to the irrationalities of NCLB data,  they just failed AYP for the 6th year in a row, while we made AYP.  Oklahoma had four tiny schools with lower ACT scores on an Indian reservation and deep in the mountains of “Little Dixie.” [think Deliverance on Meth.]) </p>
<p>But hundreds of the poor Black kids in our zip code go to a magnet school with Oklahoma’s 2nd highest average ACT of 25+ that was ranked in the top fifty in one of those national surveys (just ahead of my in-law’s school in Montgomery County) and several of the kids in our neighborhood attend a State magnet with an ACT of 31, and which is typically ranked in the top five of the nation.</p>
<p>It is even more complex than you describe, but two big factors may explain some of the anomalies.  The percentage of our sophomores passing the English test was over 40% before NCLB, but now it is consistently in the low 30s.  The problem is that nearly 100% of the “passes” are in regular classes.  I almost never get a regular class student who has passed any of the state tests.  So the main correlation for NCLB scores is the percentage of students who remain in honors programs.   Typically our honors kids are in a neighborhood school because a family crisis (usually medical) makes it logistically difficult to go to one of the dozen magnet schools that serve our zip code.</p>
<p>The Regents data also showed that our special ed students had a B average in college.  Why?  They were athletes and athletes get mentors.  I also saw this close up when my nephew led Oklahoma State to three national championships in wrestling, while graduating nearly 100%.  Needless to say, wrestlers are only half human so if the mentoring works on them, it would work with others.  You’ve written eloquently on the need for college to do more, so again we have a lot in common.</p>
<p>Getting back to your big point, I simply can’t comprehend your fixation on the one factor that divides us, and that will ALWAYS divide us, when we could agree on so much.  NCLB I was based on the hypothesis that a single type of standardized test-driven accountability could spearhead reform.  We may not agree precisely on the evidence, but surely you are extremely disappointed with the law’s results.  Now you have a hypothesis that the sausage-making process can draft an NCLB II that avoids the previous pitfalls.  My assumption is that you can fix some problems of NCLB I, while creating new unforeseen negative effects.  </p>
<p>But here’s my question.  This time next year, if you fail to create a good enough accountability system &#8211; one that meets your conscience’s standards) will you then come over to our side?  Or will it be politically impossible and will you go ahead and support an accountability regime that is not ready for prime time?</p>
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